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October 20, 2006

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Rich

"There is nothing wrong in philosophical and religious beliefs determining a person's understanding of science."

6000 year old earth
Great flood
Flat Earth
Geocentrism
Demonic possesion
This blog.

Tyrone Slothrop

Actually, Bill, it was purely by accident. But note, rather than seek evidence you jumped to a conclusion. And Bill, in case you hadn't noticed, your posts are vacuous. That seems to be the major problem with them. They simply ramble on and on about nothing. And yet, you seem convinced that you are actually saying something. Something of import.

Micro-evolution. Canard. I was talking to Robert Susman yesterday, and I dare say he knows a thing or two more than you about evolution. You see he's written and published on primate evolution and locomotion. When he writes articles, he provides evidence. He doesn't ramble about pseudo-philosophical arguments. He gets to the matter at hand.

I don't want my children learning pseudo-philosophy as science. I'd like them to stick with science and not the utterly vacuous ramblings you've posted. The evolution of the eye is fascinating. Darwin wrote about it. There has been much evidence concerning the evolution of the eye. To merely dismiss all that work, seems on your part arrogant and unwilling to learn. Michigan got it right.

I'll assess your pseudo-philosophical ramblings: bunk. I think Rich showed that well. You dodged and weaved whenever facts were introduced. No evidence. Bogus arguments. Yeah, I'd prefer my children didn't learn that as science.

plunge

"when the argument is that Darwinism (including all of its progeny) has not met the standards of a scientific theory."

You claim this, but the vast vast majority of scientists disagree with you. Shouldn't it give you, at the very least, humble pause? Which is more likely: that every single one of those scientists part of some vast conspiracy of lies, or you are mistaken?

People here have made arguments that refute your claim that it is not scientific, and you have refused to engage or respond to these arguments. One would have to conclude that you don't really have any response to them.

"ID is irrelevant. Arguing that it is false is no argument that Darwinism is true."

You yourselves proposed that we "teach alternatives." Now you claim that pointing out that the only known alternatives aren't scientific isn't relevant?

"The proof that Darwinism fails to meet that standard is that it does not explain how everything has evolved."

What standard? Biology is not the claim to understand everything. The fact that we remain in the dark about how this or that evolved is irrelevant to whether evolution is good science or not, just as the inability to predict with 100% accuracy what the weather will be like next week does not mean we should junk all our meterological models in favor of ouija borads.

"Example, human consciousness. Explain how that evolved in terms of Darwinism, neo-Darwinism, punctuated equilibrium, non-directed evolution, and any other conjecture out there."

As the cite says, it's a little hard to start explaining something when we don't really know how it works or what exactly it is yet. Holding that against evolution is just silly.

But much more importantly here is the way you are shifting back and forth between possibility and actuality. First you claim that evolution is unsound because it cannot explain X. Someone then points out that there are alots of plausible ways X could have evolved. You respond not by conceding that X is evolutionarily plausible, but instead by changing the subject and claiming that it isn't historically proven that X is what really happened. Well, no, but that's not the nature of the challenge you originally posed.

"If any strand of Darwinism is in fact a scientific theory, then it can explain how human consciousness evolved."

How do you know that it could never do so? Certainly it has done a great deal to explain, for instance, the evolution of the brain, which is surely related. The mere fact that we don't have all the answers is hardly grounds to stop working on the issue.

"That said, whatever I am or am not does not bear on my argument that the state school board is in error. To state otherwise is to commit the ad hominem fallacy."

That's true, but that's not what anyone has done. They have responded on point to your arguments, and you have mostly ignored these responses in any substantive way. Pointing out that your arguments against evolution are very common creationist claims is not ad hominem, especially not when someone proceeds to point out why they are mistaken.

"Finally, you can continue to ignore that declaring Darwinian natural selection is THE mechanism of evolution, as the state school board did, is a scientific error."

But it's simply false to claim that it did. NS is one of the major driving forces of _functional_ change, but it is not the only mechanism of evolution.

"Whether natural selection is or is not that mechanism, science has not established it as such with the level of certainty to declare it a fact."

It most certainly has in the case of common descent, which fits the NS pattern virtually to a T in every respect.

"Of course, a person who subscribes to a philosophy of naturalism, or at least a methodological naturalism regarding science, can for perfectly rational reasons believe that natural selection (or some variant or as a key part of a complex of causes) can be the only explanation for evolution."

It, again, is not the only mechanism, but it certainly is the only explanation that we know of that can be demonstrated scientifically. If there were other alternatives, perhaps you could inform us what they are, since you claim that ID and creationism aren't what you are supporting instead.

"At the end of the day, what should be taught in public school science classes is science, not beliefs about what theists or secularists want science to support."

Indeed: which is why science classes are rightly teaching what virtually every biologist agrees is good science: evolution.

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